JRG: There are always going to be people like that. When you read martial art history, you realize we have had this predicament forever. There will always be people who take bits and pieces of a martial art and say this is what it is, and I'm an expert at this. Martial art history itself is recorded by people who do this. Of course people who take short cuts and make up things is upsetting, but Mr. Kim has said to me that we have to learn that there are people who just do this, and to just not get wrapped up in that part. We try not to have a lot of personal ego invested. It's not about us as teachers, it's about the art itself; how does the technique work in a variety of situations and in life? The tragedy is that with these people, not only has their learning stopped, but they sometimes interfere with the learning of people who are training alongside of them, particularly people who are much lower rank than they are. How we have to deal with that depends on who they are and what they need to break through to their learning process. If I don't know them- say they've just come here to test- then we run through a number of theories of attacks and counters, and eventually the person will realize that that they just don't get it, that they aren't done with their learning yet. If they just continue doing the same things as if they were doing just smashingly, then we introduce counters. Then every technique they do where they aren't following the fundamentals of good basics, good grounding, good centering, good timing, they just get punched, kicked, or thrown down. And somewhere along the line if they are at all verbal, we may ask if they are learning something. And if not, we just continue to do this for awhile until it becomes obvious that if they want to learn how to do it, they are going to have to train with us for awhile, and that's fine with us. But most of them don't.

DM: What kind of person are you finding is attracted to the training you provide through these W.O.M.A.F. seminars? What kind of person is likely to go away feeling like they have gained something as opposed to someone like we just talked about, who would probably go away feeling disappointed, or frustrated?

JRG: I think a lot of people have come through W.O.M.A.F. for a lot of different reasons, and from a lot of different backgrounds. But the ones who stay tend to be intellectually inquisitive, curious and open-minded; their martial arts training is more of a growth experience and development stage than it is some kind of ego experience. Mostly they are not interest in making a lot of money or being famous so much as they are interested in their own personal journey of martial arts training, learning how it all works and how to put it together, and then being able to physically do it. The people who stay usually already understand their own personal power; they have a life that is already fairly substantial and strong and healthy, and they see that to continue their learning in the martial arts will enhance that. The ones who don't stay tend to be those people who live and breathe the martial arts to such a degree that it becomes their whole identity. They want to be 8th or 9th degree because then they will be somebody, and these people never stay long at W.O.M.A.F. because they are more interested in showing people how much they know as opposed to trying to learn something.

DM: You stated that people are coming to W.O.M.A.F. from a variety of different backgrounds; I assume you mean a variety of different martial arts systems and traditions. Do you see a general convergence of martial systems? Is there a coming together of all martial training into some future singular, over-all martial art tradition? What do you foresee as the future of martial arts?

JRG: That is a very multi-layered question. As to the first part, I can address it this way. I talked to somebody earlier today who is a well-known TaeKwonDo person who has altered his training program because of W.O.M.A.F., and has added falling and some throwing, and some other basic Hapkido grabs, but his intention is to keep his TaeKwonDo program intact. He has added some of the Hapkido principles that he feels have increased his students' competitiveness, awareness, and sensitivity, but he has not decided yet whether he will introduce a separate Hapkido program that people can take if they are interested in learning further in that direction. That is a very typical influence that we are seeing. I've talked with Judo people, and with Aikido people who are relating to Hapkido in the same sort of way. Hapkido can influence people in other art forms, and help them understand their own basics in a clearer way by looking at them in a different way. As people start to get less protective of their own art and more aware of a variety of arts, and what exposure to a variety of arts can do to enhance their own program, Hapkido seems to be at the top of that list. It's the same thing with us here at Pacific Rim; we have Aikido people come here and give seminars, and Judo people, Jujitsu people, even Kenpo people have been here-- and we learn from them, and they help us to look at how we do our Hapkido from another perspective, but our basic Hapkido doesn't change. In fact, since Hapkido is the complete martial package that it is, I see Hapkido changing less to accommodate other perspectives than I see other arts changing to accommodate the Hapkido perspective. But overall, it is not the intention of anybody I have talked to, least of all the intention of our Hapkido program, to develop one dominant martial art. I see Hapkido as being a major influence, but not becoming authoritarian or domineering. That would be arrogant. As to the second part of the question, what I see evolving is not so much of a convergence or divergence of techniques or martial systems so much as a way of approaching practice itself. As belt rank becomes less and less important, and as people prefer to be promoted for achievement instead of some less legitimate reason, the focus of practice changes. Then, it's not what rank do I aspire to, but how do I make this work? At this point, practice becomes free of external influence. It becomes incorporated, or internalized to the point of being ego-free. It is the end point of any martial artist's development to reach a stage of ego-less practice. Then one becomes a part of a practice group-- a shared experience, a shared consciousness, if you will. This is the ultimate goal of the emotional training that we talked about earlier. It is at this point that we can trust one another enough, being free from non-practice agendas, to practice deadly technique. Then the true martial nature of the art can be approached safely, as it should be--as it used to be, before rank came so quickly. Those young masters we spoke of, who are 8th and 9th dans before they are thirty-five do not have a clue as to what they have missed out on. But those who learn how to "go back to the beginning", who continually refresh their memories of the basics, not only of movement and technique but of the philosophy and ethical tenets of their art, those who learn how to continually renew their commitment to their art with ever increasing awareness, these are the students from whom will emerge tomorrow's true masters, no matter what martial art they study.

DM: Thank you very much.

JRG: You're welcome.