Dick Morgan: You were recently promoted to 9th degree (October, 1997) by Grandmaster Kim, Sang Cook, the man who is generally considered by those in a position to know as the number-one man in Hapkido in the world today. What is your perspective on this honor?

James R. Garrison: My impression of promotion, particularly at that level, is that it is an acknowledgement of the relationship that he and I have that has gone on for almost 30 years. To answer the question, I have to go back to my first experiences with him, particularly my experiences travelling with him in Korea, where I was exposed for the first time to real leadership in the martial arts. The senior martial arts people in Korea all not only respected Mr. Kim, but they were also very solicitous and interested in his council and the direction he envisioned for us, not only as martial artists, but as people just experiencing life. When we look at promotions and at rank, we tend to focus on the technical aspects of the art and the level of understanding of those technical aspects. Mr. Kim has guided me towards understanding this, but also understanding the priciples behind the technical aspects, and the understanding of how to better teach these; and somewhere along the line, he has made me realize that there is a larger, philosophical position which incorporates all of this into a way of life. I didn't know any of this before I met Mr. Kim, and he was already at that level 30 years ago. So, what he has done by saying 'you're promoted' is to say, you have a responsibility to pass along this understanding in its fullest degree to your students and to the community at large.

DM: I wanted to ask you about the unusual manner in which your promotion occured, when Mr. Kim walked up to you in the middle of a seminar and simply said, 'Here's your upgrade,' handed you the certificate for 9th degree, and walked away. Would you discuss his sensibilities, and why he would handle it this way? Did you know that you were going to be promoted?

JRG: I had no idea that he was going to promote me. I was just glad that he came to the seminar so that other members of the World Oriental Martial Arts Federation from around the U.S. could meet him. The promotion was the last thing on my mind. I had assumed that my 8th degree promotion, which I received when I was with him in Korea, was to be the last one. But the thing that Mr. Kim was the most excited about was that another Mr. Kim who is very prominent in Korea in Hapkido came to the seminar with him, and they brought a plaque from the association that said in effect, 'you've been an important part of the association, and a diligent student, you've come a long way, and thank you very much' and he was far more excited about presenting the plaque than he was about the promotion. The plaque was very personal, from his heart, and I think that was where his energy was. His position on promotion was that if he recommended me for promotion, the board of directors of the association would have to go along with it because of his position. So he has never recommended me for promotion because he didn't want to influence the outcome. He has always let the board of directors decide. If they wanted to promote me, that was fine, or if not, that was fine, too. It wasn't a personal thing to him. And anyway, since Hapkido is ultimately an internal growth system, the higher the rank, the tradition has been the less ceremony there is receiving it. Rank never has been much of an issue with Mr. Kim; it's more about relationship. Consequently, nothing has really changed for me. Nothing is really different than when I was an 8th degree, or a 7th degree. Mr. Kim is still my teacher, and we are still friends.

DM: When you say that rank was never much of an issue with Mr. Kim, would you say that this viewpoint is unique, or is this a more typical viewpoint in Korea? What are some of your personal views on the importance of rank?

JRG: I think that rank has far less importance to martial artists in Korea than it does in the United States. So much importance has been placed on rank worldwide that there has come to be some dishonesty in rank acquisition. If you have enough money, you can be any rank you want. So many organizations make their money by selling rank for profit, that everywhere, people in the martial arts are beginning to mistrust rank in general. This is especially true in Korea, where the martial arts are a central part of the culture. For years, Korean martial artists haven't been impressed much by rank. They just want to know who a person has practiced with, and for how long. That tells them what they need to know about that person. A Korean will say, who cares what rank he is-- what does he know?

DM: It doesn't bother you that there are a lot of 8th and 9th degree black belts around the U.S. who are under 40 years old?

JRG: It used to bother me because I knew that in most cases this is impossible, but Mr. Kim and I have talked about this at length, and one of the things he has said is that this kind of thing doesn't happen in Korea very often. In Korea, if somebody says that they have mastered a certain style or system, then other people in that system are going to expect that at some point, that person is going to have to prove it on the mat. And if somebody claims to have developed a new kind of scientific martial art that's better than anybody else's, then everybody is going to want them to prove it. At some point, the talking and the bragging and the posturing ends, and the reality has to fit the claim. I have seen this approach in Korea work for 30 years, and it no longer bothers me what anybody claims or does not claim. My relationships with other people are more reality-based. In Korea, you not only have to be able to defend your position on your new martial art, but you also have to explain why it would be better. But in the U.S., in the '90's, this kind of confrontation is very rare, and people don't have to prove their claims very often. So people think that attaining the rank is the goal, not perfecting the art. A common idea here is that more is better, so people think that if you have a high rank, you must be a better teacher. Just like in theory, if you have a PhD, you're a better teacher than if you don't, which has never been proven as a fact. Now we have people doing the same thing with ill-gotten PhDs that has been happening with undeserved black belts. So I think that more and more, people are starting to look around, starting to not be dissuaded by high rank so much as they are just looking for good teachers. People are more skeptical of inflated claims such as world champion, 15th patriarch, enlightened deep in the forest and come down from the mountaintop to help the rest of us. They just want to learn from somebody who has a grasp of the total package of what the martial arts has to offer.

DM: What do you mean by "total package"?

JRG: I mean that the martial arts are intended to be a total mind, body, spirit discipline, not just various forms of bare knuckle fighting. A martial art must be a complete package where you learn about patience, and compassion, and respect, and awareness. Martial art was not ever intended to be a sport, like boxing, which is only about winning and losing within a certain rule matrix. People get trapped into thinking that highly publicized, no holds barred tough-man events in which biggest is best represents the martial arts, but a real martial art teaches you how to use your brain first. Serious, long time martial artists most likely would have nothing to do with such theatrics, because they make no sense. You're not mad at them, they're not mad at you, why bother? It's an artificial format, not real life. Martial art is about living life in a realistic, thoughtful, respectful, and aware way. It's about how to handle confrontation in the most graceful manner. If an awkward or violent situation can be avoided, a true warrior would do so. If a violent situation is eminent, a warrior will first use his brain to try and resolve the situation peacefully. If that isn't possible, then he will use his skills to bring about the least amount of damage to the least amount of people. A warrior has to be successful at being a person first.

DM: You use the word warrior as though it has a positive connotation, yet the word is hard to define in present day terms. In past generations, being a warrior meant being someone skilled at, or at least experienced at, warfare. But in the present day, the mechanisms of war have become so horrific that the term warrior, in order to have any positive value, begs for new meaning. Would you clarify how you are intending the word warrior to be understood?

JRG: Good question. When I use the term warrior, I am referring to a way of living one's life that seems to evolve from following a martial tradition over a long period of time. At some point in one's martial training, one comes to realize that successful training depends on much more than just showing up for class and looking good. Progress in the martial arts depends on how personal the training becomes-- how we internalize the lessons we learn. I mean by that that a person cannot reach a level of martial efficiency by physical practice alone. He or she must also evolve mentally, emotionally, and spiritually as well. The idea is to turn oneself into not only a technically trained individual, but a mentally alert, emotionally balanced, ethically guided individual. The term warrior implies more than anything else, purposeful living--living in such a way as to be congruent with your intent. It is beyond violence or warfare. We just live a life that is ruled by our belief system, which is we train hard and we lead a healthy life, and we do the best we can for our community

DM: So you are saying that Hapkido, which is the art that you teach, is not just about fighting?